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我再就言论自由和论坛管理谈点看法 [复制链接]

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发表于 2012-9-13 09:20:31 |显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 马列托主义者 于 2012-9-14 08:19 编辑

我再谈点看法:
1.言论自由一直是以国家政权层面谈的,论坛和媒体没有资格谈言论自由,这一点我必须强调,就是国家机器不能以言论而判人有罪,否则是封建的和法西斯的政权。我为什么在这里要强调这点呢,不是因为这里的网友要求封杀某ID,而是这些人如果当权必然要法西斯化,对言论治罪大搞文字狱或用国家机器压制言论(和伪共专制当局一样无耻),这就是苏联和中国60年来的事实,也是工人国家畸形化和最终丧失政权的主观原因之一。

2.学术自由是主要就媒体论坛学术研究机构等非国家主体而言的,这里不存在这些非国家主体能让人因言获罪的能力,不过他们可以压制言论,导致言论不畅的问题。

3特定的媒体论坛是有其底线和立场原则的,所以他有权根据其宗旨目的来监控言论,所以贵网完全有权限制言论和管理网友,但是我只是希望贵网能制定版规,大体规定哪类言论是允许的,哪类是不允许的,以便网友可以按章办事并决定是不是留下来或离开。
你看美国客观主义论坛就是说对于马克思主义的东西他们不欢迎但是可以严肃讨论:
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4为什么毛派的网站害怕异见分子占领毛派网站,可见毛派自己没有自信,你去美国客观主义网站宣扬马克思主义试试,你一去就会遭到围攻似的“批驳”,因为那里聚集着大量客观主义者,有少数法轮功分子(比如)到毛派论坛来发言,你们这么'多“毛派分子讲一句话就能把他淹没,你们怕什么呢?你们为什么要通过压制言论的方式来保卫你们的网站呢,我曾经去美国客观主义网站(注意当时我是想找一个英文的马克思主义论坛没有找到只找到了一个兰德客观主义的英文论坛),一开始我没有看论坛规则,我注册了,用户名用的是marxist,结果马上收到管理员的来信说你看没看论坛规则并说你可能如绵羊进入了狼群,你的发言可能会带来这里满屋子都是客观主义者的反驳),后来我发现确实如此,我是几乎是一夫当关舌战群儒,结果毕竟马克思主义理论的力量导致他们封杀了我(因为我认为他们都是错的,他们无法驳倒我)

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发表于 2012-9-13 09:21:35 |显示全部楼层
美国客观主义论坛的版规:
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发表于 2012-9-13 09:34:52 |显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 马列托主义者 于 2012-9-13 11:17 编辑

1年前写的(部分关于言论自由问题)

毛派历史性的失败居然还不能让他们自己醒悟,中国的走向是完全符合托洛茨基分析的情形的,毛派似乎不许反动派言论,结果走到反对无产阶级上来,毛和美国勾勾搭搭,指定的接班人是个庸人(不是无产阶级可以选出来的能为无产阶级服务的人),为邓小平铺路(邓小平严格而言是毛主义者,邓小平复出时毛表示祝贺,有图为证(不能显示连接),毛和邓没有不可调和的鸿沟,在邓小平的纪录片中邓老是指手画脚说毛主席说什么什么,好像他就是毛的应声虫),到现在毛主义者赵东明被监禁不能说和毛派反人权的错误没有任何联系。

毛邓(矛盾)=对立统一体
毛泽东掌握政权后不是通过无产阶级媒体批判资产阶级的意识形态,对于没有采取武装反抗的资产阶级残余采取了反人权的做法,马克思说无产阶级的解放是解放全人类,马克思从来没有说要剥夺资产阶级的生命等的人权而是剥夺他们的生产资料(剥夺剥夺者),不然就不能理解什么是无产阶级要解放全人类才能解放他自己。无产阶级革命胜利后要剥夺资产阶级的生产资料而且要让资产阶级具有和无产阶级一样的权利,只要他们愿意(不武力反抗),那么无产阶级就要保证前资产阶级的无产阶级权利。
毛只维护自己的利益(斯大林一党独裁的利益),而反对一切或者利用一切,美国有用了,就和美国勾勾搭搭,邓小平有用了就重新起用邓小平,托洛茨基主义(真正的马克思的思想继承者)对官僚有害,就迫害,不一而足!

我刚刚从维基词典日文的日本对文化大革命的评论,说一开始,日本完全没有流传文革的实态,1966年4月14日、全国人民代表大会常務委員会拡大会議上郭沫若说按照现在的标准,那么我以前写的东西一点价值都没有,应该全部烧毁。日本的川端康成、安部公房、石川淳、三島由紀夫等作者联名发表抗议声明。

毛要反制一切反动言论,结果连郭沫若这样的按道理是无产阶级一员的言论(包括以前的言论)都不允许了,我按同一个逻辑,按照现在(毛文革的标准)的标准,那么毛泽东以前写的东西(如论联合政府等)一点价值都没有,应该全部烧毁。
(文化大革命が開始された当初は、日本には実態がほとんど伝わっていなかった。だが、1966年4月14日、全国人民代表大会常務委員会拡大会議の席上で郭沫若が「今日の基準からいえば、私が以前書いたものにはいささかの価値もない。すべて焼き尽くすべきである」と過酷なまでの自己批判をさせられたことが報じられると、川端康成、安部公房、石川淳、三島由紀夫は、連名で抗議声明を発表した。)
郭沫若本身就是毛派的典型代表。
他写诗说“拥护党中央,拥护华主席……”
反正郭沫若是谁成为核心,就拥护谁
看乌有之乡的代表人物张宏良不是活脱脱的毛派的典型代表吗。
在资本主义社会,我们必须支持资本主义言论自由和出版自由的权利,在社会主义革命中,一切非武力反抗的作为非表现性行为的言论都必须保障其自由,以便防止官僚化。
我再就一个极端反毛的袁腾飞的事例说几句。
首先当前中国是一个斯大林主义官僚统治的资本主义社会。所以这个社会没有言论自由出版自由的资产阶级民主制度。袁腾飞作为一个资产阶级言论代表,他的言论获得了斯大林主义官僚的批准自然可以通过CCTV什么的讲,不管什么言论,必须得到斯大林主义官僚批准才能在中国见世。
如果放到30年前的毛时代,他就不可能得到同样是斯大林主义官僚(说明对于斯大林主义者不管是采取公有制计划经济的形式还是私有化市场经济的形式,其唯一要保护的利益是一党独裁的官僚阶层的利益,所以会出现看似绝然不同的情况)的批准,所以不能见世,而且这个人要被肉体消灭或者劳教。
而真正的社会主义社会呢?无产阶级来评估他的言论,不会让他利用社会主义的主要媒体(已经掌握在无产阶级手中),但是我们不会肉体消灭或者劳教之,他可以通过他自身的手段或有限的社会手段得以表达他的观点,只要他没有通过购买枪支等方式进行武力暴动,我们只是对他进行理论批判(有广大的无产阶级来做),一切言论置于公开状态下由全体工人阶级来定夺其合理性和正确性。
希望大家看了这个评论能知道言论自由等确实是基本的人权,同样是社会主义者追求的东西,是最终自由人的一部分权利。

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发表于 2012-9-13 09:35:53 |显示全部楼层
下面是一篇托洛茨基写的关于工人阶级和媒体自由的文章,值得一读。
Leon Trotsky
Freedom of the Press
and the Working Class
(August 1938)

The following text is the editorial of the first issue of the Mexican Marxist magazine Clave, published in October 1938. The original manuscript, written by Trotsky, was found around 1977 in the Trotsky Archive in Harvard.
Translated from the French and Greek translations, for the Trotsky Internet Archive in 1998. A translation directly from the Spanish can be found on p.417 of Writings of Leon Trotsky, 1937-38

A campaign against the reactionary press is developing in Mexico. The campaign is directed by the CTM (Confederation of Mexican Workers) leaders or, more precisely, by Mr. Lombardo Toledano personally. The object is to “curb” reactionary press, either by submitting it to censorship,&amp;amp;nbsp;or&amp;amp;nbsp;by banning it completely. The trade unions have entered the path of war. Decidedly incurable democrats, corrupted by their experiences with a completely Stalinised Moscow, headed by “friends” of the GPU, have greeted this campaign, which can only be described as suicidal. In fact it is not difficult to see that, even if this campaign would triumph and bring concrete results to the liking of Lombardo Toledano, the ultimate consequences will fall back on the working class.

Theory, as well as historic experience, testify that any restriction to democracy in bourgeois society, is eventually directed against the proletariat, just as taxes eventually fall on the shoulders of the proletariat. Bourgeois democracy is usable by the proletariat only insofar as it opens the way for the development of the class struggle. Consequently, any workers “leader” who arms the bourgeois state with special means to control public opinion in general, and the press in particular, is a traitor. In the last analysis, the accentuation of class struggle will force bourgeois of all shades, to conclude a pact: to accept special legislation, and every kind of restrictive measures, and measures of “democratic” censorship against the working class. Those who have not yet realised this, should leave the ranks of the working class.

“But sometimes” – will object certain “friends” of the Soviet&amp;amp;nbsp;union&amp;amp;nbsp;– “the dictatorship of the proletariat is obliged to resort to exceptional measures, especially against the reactionary press”

To this we reply: First, this objection equates a workers’ state with a bourgeois state. Although Mexico is a semi-colonial country, it is at the same time a bourgeois state, definitely not a workers’ state. But even from the point of view of the interests of the dictatorship of the proletariat, the interdiction&amp;amp;nbsp;or&amp;amp;nbsp;censorship of bourgeois papers is not at all a matter of “program”&amp;amp;nbsp;or&amp;amp;nbsp;“principle&amp;quot;, nor an ideal situation.

Once victorious, the proletariat may find itself forced, for a period of time, to take special measures against the bourgeoisie, if the bourgeoisie adopts an attitude of open revolt against the workers’ state. In this case, restrictions to the freedom of the press go hand in hand with all other measures used in preparation for a civil war. When forced to use artillery and aviation against the enemy we will obviously not tolerate this same enemy maintaining his own centers of information and propaganda inside the camp of the armed proletariat. Nevertheless, even in this case, if exceptional measures are prolonged long enough to create a permanent situation, then they carry the danger of going out of control and, giving a political monopoly to the workers’ bureaucracy, becoming a source of its degeneration.

We have before us a living example of such a dynamic, with the hated suppression of the freedom of expression and of the press in the Soviet Union. And this has nothing to do with the interests of the dictatorship of the proletariat. On the contrary, it helps protect the interests of the new caste in power against the attacks of the workers’ and peasants’ opposition. This highly bonapartist Moscow bureaucracy is currently aped by Messrs. Lombardo Toledano and co. who confuse their personal careers with the interests of socialism.

The real tasks of the workers’ state do not consist in policing public opinion, but in freeing it from the yoke of capital. This can only be done by placing the means of production – which includes the production of information – in the hands of society in its entirety. Once this essential step towards socialism has been taken, all currents of opinion which have not taken arms against the dictatorship of the proletariat must be able to express themselves freely. It is the duty of the workers’ state to put in their hands, to all according to their numeric importance, the technical means necessary for this, printing presses, paper, means of transportation. One of the principal causes of the degeneration of the state machine is the monopolisation of the press by the Stalinist bureaucracy which risks to transform all the gains of the October revolution to a pile of ruins.

If we had to search for examples of the nefarious influence of the Comintern on workers’ movements of various countries, the actual campaign led by Lombardo Toledano would furnish one of the worst. Essentially, Toledano and his doctrinary companions try to introduce into a bourgeois democratic system methods and means which, under certain circumstances, might be inevitable under the dictatorship of the proletariat. Moreover, they don’t in fact borrow these methods from the dictatorship of the proletariat, but from its bonapartist usurpers. In other words, they infect an already sick bourgeois democracy with the virus of the decadent bureaucracy.

The anemic democracy of Mexico is facing a constant, mortal, daily danger from two directions: First from the foreign imperialism and, second, from the agents of reaction in the interior of the country, who control the high volume publications. But only those blind&amp;amp;nbsp;or&amp;amp;nbsp;simpleminded could think that the workers and peasants could be freed from reactionary ideas by the banning of reactionary press. In fact, it is only the greatest freedom of expression that can create favorable conditions for the advance of the revolutionary movement in the working class.

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发表于 2012-9-13 09:36:57 |显示全部楼层
It is essential to wage an unrelenting battle against the reactionary press. But the workers cannot leave a task they have to fulfill themselves through their own organisations and their own press, to the repressive fist of the bourgeois state. Today the government may seem well disposed towards workers’ organisations. Tomorrow it may fall, and it inevitably will, into the hands of the most reactionary elements of the bourgeoisie. In this case the existing repressive laws will be used against the workers. Only adventurists who think of nothing but the moment’s needs can fail to guard themselves against such a danger.

The most efficient way to fight the bourgeois press is for the workers’ press to develop. Of course, yellow papers like El Popular, are unable to undertake such a task. Such papers have no place among the workers’ press, the revolutionary press,&amp;amp;nbsp;or&amp;amp;nbsp;even the bourgeois press of good reputation. El Popular serves the personal ambitions of Mr. Toledano, who himself is in fact in the service of the Stalinist bureaucracy. Its methods: lies, calumnies, witch hunts, are methods à la Toledano. His paper has neither program nor ideas. It is evident that such a sheet can never strike a resonant chord in the working class, nor win them over from the bourgeois press.

So we arrive at the inevitable conclusion that the struggle between the bourgeois press starts with the eviction of the degenerate leaders from workers’ organisations and in particular from the liberation of the workers’ press from the tutelage of Toledano and other bourgeois careerists. The Mexican proletariat needs a honest press to express its needs, defend its interests, broaden its horizon and pave the way for the socialist revolution in Mexico. This is what CLAVE intends to do. So, we start by declaring an unrelenting war against the bonapartist pretensions of Toledano. In this effort, we hope for the support of all advanced workers, as well as Marxists and authentic democrats.
托洛茨基在该文中谈到了墨西哥搞的一场抵制所谓的反动媒体的行动,这场运动完全是斯大林主义的,结果即使能取得所谓的胜利也最终将使无产阶级丧失出版的自由的权利,成 为反对无产阶级的东西。
理论和历史证明任何在资产阶级社会的对民主的限制最终都要落到反无产阶级的方向上来,就像税收最终要落到无产阶级肩上一样
(Theory, as well as historic experience, testify that any restriction to

democracy in bourgeois society, is eventually directed against the

proletariat, just as taxes eventually fall on the shoulders of the

proletariat. )
托洛茨基还准确地说:资产阶级民主在它能为阶级斗争的发展开辟道路的界限内对于无产阶级是有益的。
(Bourgeois democracy is usable by the proletariat only insofar as it

opens the way for the development of the class struggle.)
托洛茨基该文还正确地说,对无产阶级来说,最有效的与资产阶级媒体斗争的方式就是发展无产阶级的媒体。
(The most efficient way to fight the bourgeois press is for the workers’ press to develop.)

托洛茨基在前面引用的文中充分表达了言论自由、出版自由对于无产阶级斗争和无产阶级专政的意义,无产阶级要战胜资产阶级不是通过官僚控制的方式遏制资产阶级的言论, 这会反过来走向反对无产阶级自己的言论的地步,这就是苏联和60年来中国的情况,无产阶级要做的是通过自己的言论自由、出版自由击败资产阶级,除非资产阶 级直接使用武力,无产阶级才有必要采用武力。无产阶级一旦获得政权就更可能而有能力发展自己的言论和出版事业,更加不惧怕资产阶级的意识形态。

托洛茨基说:工人国家的真正任务不在于监视公众观点,而是让公众观点摆脱资本的束缚,要做到这一点,必须把生产资料-包括用于生产信息的生产资料-完全置于社 会的手中,一旦采取通往社会主义的步骤,那么一切只要不是武力反对无产阶级专政的言论(非表现性行为)必须能得到自由的表达。(否则就可能如苏联和中国这样转变为官僚集团 的反工人的工具)

(The real tasks of the workers’ state do not consist in policing public

opinion, but in freeing it from the yoke of capital. This can only be

done by placing the means of production – which includes the production

of information – in the hands of society in its entirety. Once this

essential step towards socialism has been taken, all currents of

opinion which have not taken arms against the dictatorship of the

proletariat must be able to express themselves freely. )

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发表于 2012-9-13 09:39:52 |显示全部楼层
新闻自由与工人阶级

托洛茨基
(1938)

中译者:史骊
 

  下面这篇简短的文章,写于1938年,刊于墨西哥一份理论刊物《锁论》(Clave)1938年10月创刊号中,以社论形式发表。
  原文以西班牙文刊出,英文的译文最近才发表于纽约出版的六月九日《洲际通讯》(IntercontinentalPress)。而在《共和国》报被《武装力量运动》委派的督印人接管以后,原来社会党的编辑另外出版一份刊物,名为《共和报事件杂志》(Journal of Republica Case),在第十期中,就刊登了托洛茨基这篇文章。

  一场反对反动刊物的运动正在墨西哥展开。这场攻击由墨西哥工人联合会(CTM)领袖们所导演;或者更清楚地说,是由杜礼丹劳(Lombardo Toledano)先生个人所导演的。目标是要“抑制”反动刊物,将它置于一个民主的检查之下,或者干脆将它封闭。工会已为这场斗争被动员起来。那些无可救药的民主派,受他们与斯大林化了的莫斯科的经验所败坏,以及受到格柏乌(苏联秘密警察)之友所领导,竟欢呼这项自杀性的运动。事实上,并不会很困难就能预估到,就算这次运动得到胜利,并且做成的实际效果,能适合杜礼丹劳的胃口,但最后的结果将会主要由工人阶级来担负(受害)。
  理论和历史经验两者都证明出,最后分析起来,在资产阶级社会中,对民主的任何限制,都无异直接针对无产阶级;就正如征取任何税务,都会落在工人阶级的肩膊上一样。资产阶级民主,只当它为发展阶级斗争而打开道路时,才会对无产阶级有用。因而,任何工人阶级“领袖”以特别方法去一般地操纵公众言论,特殊地操纵报刊,来武装资产阶级国家,就确实是一个叛徒。最后分析起来,阶级斗争的尖锐化,将会迫使各种色彩的资产阶级互相达成协议;那时,他们就会通过特别法令,任何一种的限制措施,以及任何一种的“民主”检查,来反对工人阶级。任何还未明白这一点的人,应该离开工人阶级的行列。
  “但有时”——一些苏联之“友”会反对说“无产阶级专政被迫去应用特别的措施,特别是反对那些反动刊物的。”
  我们这样回答:这些反对,基本上源自企图将一个工人国家等同于一个资产阶级国家。虽然墨西哥是一个半殖民国家,它同时是一个资产阶级国家,并且绝不会是一个工人国家。而且,就算站在无产阶级专政的利益立场上,封闭资产阶级报纸或者是检查它,并不一定构成一个“纲领”,或者是一项“原则”,或者是一个理想的设计。这类的措施只能是暂时的,无可避免的丑恶。
  一旦掌握了舵轮,假如资产阶级采取一种公开反抗工人国家的态度,无产阶级可能觉得要在一个时期内,被迫采取特殊的措施以对付资产阶级。在那种情况下,限制新闻自由将会与在内战中所施行的其它措施一起执行。假如你被迫使用大炮和飞机对付敌人,你自然不会容许这同一敌人在无产阶级的营堡中保留它自己的新闻和宣传的中心。无论如何,就算在这个例子中亦一样,假如那特殊措施一直延长着,成为采取持久形式时,它们自身就带着不受控制、以及工人官僚掌握政治垄断的危险,这会成为它的堕落的根源之一。
  在我们面前,我们有这种动力的一个活生生的例子:对言论自由和新闻自由的可恨的压制,今天在苏联已成了法律。这与无产阶级专政的利益毫无关系。恰相反,它是被设计来保护新生统治阶层的利益,以对抗工人和农民的反对的。莫斯科那个极富波拿巴性质的官僚层,受到杜礼丹劳及其一伙所效颦,他们将个人事业等同于社会主义的利益。
  工人阶级的真正任务,并不在于以一个警察的钳子,钳在公众言论之上,而是将它从资本的枷锁下解放出来。这只能靠将生产资料——包括了公众资料的生产一一置于整个社会的手中才能做到。一旦采取了这个基本的社会主义步骤,则必须容许任何不拿起武器来反对无产阶级专政的舆论的流派,都拥有自由地表达他们自己的机会。工人国家有责任给他们提供机会,依照他们的人数,给与他们技术资料,例如刊物、报纸和运输等。国家机关堕落的主要原因之一,就是斯大林官僚对新闻的垄断,它对于十月革命的成果,具有完全败坏的威胁。
  假如我们观察一下共产国际在各国工人运动中的致使性影响的例子,则杜礼丹劳目前的运动就提供了最特异的一个。杜礼丹劳及其教派的追随者,基本上正在企图将一些在无产阶级专政下,某些暂时境况中无可避免的手段和方法,施用于资产阶级民主的制度里。更甚的是,他们并非从无产阶级专政那里借来这些方法,而是从它的波拿巴化的篡夺者那里借来。换句话说,它们以腐朽的斯大林主义官僚的病毒,传染给那个早已病入膏肓的资产阶级民主制。
  墨西哥的贫血的民主面对着来自两个方向的经常性的和死亡的威胁——首先是来自外国帝国主义,其次来自国内反对力量的代表,他们操纵了广泛流传的出版物。但只有瞎子和低能儿才能想出禁闭反动刊物的结果,就能使工农自己脱离反动思想的影响。在现实里面,只有最大的言论、出版和结社的自由,才能为工人阶级的革命运动前进创造有利的条件。
  对反动刊物发动无情的斗争是基本上需要的。但工人并不能让资产阶级国家的压迫的拳头,来代替必须通过他们自己的组织和刊物所发动的斗争。今天,国家可能对工人组织采取“友善”的姿态,但明天,政府就会落在——无可避免地落在——资产阶级中最反动的份子手里。在那时,任何存在着的限制性法律,都会施之于工人身上。只有毫无头脑的冒险者,才会以片刻的需要而不顾这种危险。
  打击资产阶级刊物的最有效方法就是扩展工人阶级的刊物。当然,像《大众报》(El Popular)一类的黄色刊物,是不能担承起这项任务的。这些纸张在工人的刊物——革命的刊物——中,甚至乎在体面的资产阶级刊物中,也无立身之地。《大众报》为杜礼丹劳先生的个人志愿服务,他又反转来为斯大林官僚层服务。它的方法——欺骗、造谣、政治迫害运动和伪造——亦是杜礼丹劳的方法。他的报导并无纲领,亦无观点。但明显地,这样一份报纸并不能在工人阶级中引起反响,亦不能从资产阶级中,争取到无产阶级。
  所以,我们走到了那个无可避免的结论:反对资产阶级报刊的战斗,应该从赶走工人阶级组织的堕落的“领袖”开始,特别是要将工人的刊物,从杜礼丹劳和其他资产阶级钻营者的包揽之下解放出来。墨西哥无产阶级必须有一份忠实的报纸去表达它的要求,保卫它的利益,扩阔它的视野和为墨西哥社会主义革命准备道路。这就是《锁论》所提议去做的。因而,我们一开始就对杜礼丹劳的卑鄙的虚伪,宣布无情的斗争。同时在这项努力中,我们期待着所有先进工人、马克思主义者和真正的民主派的支持。


一九三八年八月廿一日


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Rank: 6Rank: 6

发表于 2012-9-13 19:24:43 |显示全部楼层
支持,要让不同意见发表。如果压制不同意见,就是违反了西方网络管理法律,就是自己害怕真理。

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