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一场俄乌战争彻底把这些军事专家打出原型 [复制链接]

Rank: 6Rank: 6

楼主
发表于 2023-9-30 18:27:58 |显示全部楼层
现在俄罗斯外长拉夫罗飞开始松口尊重乌克兰领土完整想和乌克兰谈判

前天看你发那个帖子,我刚把拉夫罗夫的原话从采访录像里整理出来,你那帖子就被删了。想想也是,拿着网易上亲帝自由派媒体(https://www.163.com/dy/media/T1684636126804.html)没头没尾的短视频当什么确凿的消息源,也确实没啥反驳的必要,删了拉倒。不过你这被删贴之后还不去仔细考证一下,还搁这基于错误的论据发表长篇大论,属实是贻笑大方了。
拉夫罗夫的采访原话很长,我分成两段在下面两层楼贴给你,你自己看看吧。下次再有这种事儿,我就不惯着你了,自己去找原文哈。

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

沙发
发表于 2023-9-30 18:29:03 |显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 饮料喝没了 于 2023-9-30 19:26 编辑

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZgxp1K0loA
38分08秒-44分17秒
Q: The United States always say that if the Ukrainians stop fighting, Ukraine will not exist anymore. Does the Russian Federation recognize the sovereignty of Ukraine?
A: Of course, back in 1991, we recognize the sovereignty of Ukraine on the basis of the Declaration of Independence which Ukraine adopted when it withdrew from the Soviet Union. And the declaration has a great deal of good written there, including that they will respect the rights of national minorities, that they will respect the rights of Russian language speakers, as well as Russian is explicitly spelled out there. Then this was reflected in Ukrainian Constitution, but in the Declaration of Independence, one of the main points for us of was that Ukraine would be a nonblock, non-aligned country that it would not enter any into any military alliances. And in that version, under those circumstances, we supported Ukrainians territorial integrity. When they had some kind of a mini coup back in 2004 when the Americans were dragged in unlawfully forcing the Ukrainians to conduct a third round of elections, which were not stipulated in the Constitution they ultimately brought their person to the presidential post. Even then, we had good relations with them. But when the third coup occurred, I understand that all these months I have been poorly explaining it and even wednesday I explained it poorly, it happened the day after the signing of an agreement on resolution. An agreement according to which early elections were to be held early in the morning. The opposition took up all of the administrative buildings and when we began to call the guarantors of this agreement, France, Poland and Germany.

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板凳
发表于 2023-9-30 18:30:54 |显示全部楼层
We were told not very clearly but that democracy at times assumes these unusual Contours and the first objective for those Democrats who killed more than 100 people in carrying out the coup. The first thing they announced was that they would resend the status of the Russian language in Ukraine. They immediately announced the crusade of armed fighters in the direction of Crimea to seize the creman parliament. These people simply began to protect their homes, to protect their language, to protect their traditions, and they conducted a referendum quite simply. And Crimea immediately rejoined the Russian Federation with respect to dbas as soon as the referenda were conductive. Kia unleashed military aviation tanks. They bombed residential areas and cities, and these atrocities ended one year later with the signing of the Minsk agreements. And last year, everybody other than Putin who signed on to those agreements. Merkel aland pareno said we had no intention of implementing anything, we needed time to provide Ukraine with weaponry to use against Russia, and most importantly, we were often told even by the Secretary General that we need to implement the resolution on Ukraine because the general assembly adopted that resolution very well if we are to adopt that logic implement it. But why aren't resolutions on many other issues being implemented including on decolonization of the mayote island, the chagos archipelago. Why is the UK skirting implementation of the general assembly resolution on the malvinasif we were to take those resolutions? We know about the methods of exerting pressure, those methods, that our Western colleagues harness they all agreed. And approximately a good one-third did not support those resolutions, and the resolution that I mention was unanimously adopted on the principles of relations between sovereign states on the basis of the charter of the United Nations, and it describes sovereignty and territorial integrity. All must comply with the sovereignty and territorial integrity of those countries whose governments respect the principle of self-determination of peoples and in connection with this, all the peoples residing on this territory. So to be respected, you need to respect your population. And the United Nations Secretary General, our esteemed Antonio gues, in one of his statements, he mentioned the principle that opens the charter, we the peoples means democracy, means that those governing need to have the the consent of the Govern and the general assembly also said there will be respect for the territorial integrity of those who represent the entire population residing on their territory when against dbas and against Crimea a war was unleashed essentially. How can it be said that the governments of these pooches represent the people? Are there the people of those territories who last year conducted referenda on rejoining the Russian Federation. So we have no problems with territorial integrity of Ukraine. This was destroyed by those who carried out and supported the coup, whose leaders declared war against their own people and who began to bomb their own people.

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地板
发表于 2023-9-30 18:59:25 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 18:51
拉夫罗夫当然现在还不至于要无条件投降,但是他试图有条件谈判,只要乌克兰回到1991年独立协议,就承认乌 ...

你的英语阅读理解能力比我高,pooch

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5#
发表于 2023-9-30 19:05:20 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 19:01
我不懂英语,你翻译一下,是什么意思

这拉夫罗夫的原话啊,问我什么意思干啥,我又看不懂,随便复制的一个词

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6#
发表于 2023-9-30 20:02:56 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 19:14
拉夫罗夫说他们是承认乌克兰主权完整的,没有问题,问题是乌克兰违反了所谓的独立宣言?是不是这个意思
...

你的理解要是截止到这儿的话,那确实是对的

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7#
发表于 2023-9-30 20:35:57 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 20:24
你完全可以说我哪里理解不对,还有什么我没有理解的
而不是去年的要求,什么去军事化,去纳粹化,更加不是哦帝通过法律形式确认的乌东四州是俄罗斯领土啊

对着乌克兰独立宣言的具体内容和俄乌的前后历史脉络,看看哪个是哪个的充分条件。要是你一时找不到的话,可以直接看拉夫罗夫的发言,他都帮你整理好了。阅读英文有困难或者实在懒得看的话,就直接看最后一句:“So we have no problems with territorial integrity of Ukraine. This was destroyed by those who carried out and supported the coup, whose leaders declared war against their own people and who began to bomb their own people.”

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8#
发表于 2023-9-30 21:27:54 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 20:41
我全文看过,帮你提炼出了核心观点
就算你拿出最后一句
似乎拉夫罗夫说他是在保障乌克兰的完整主权,反而 ...

你看,你这不就是自己打自己脸了吗
前面说拉夫罗夫已经在为自己的后路和战败做准备了
现在又说拉夫罗夫用“不要脸逻辑”对乌克兰进行军事干涉
那拉夫罗夫到底是想进还是想退?

而且啊,啥事儿理亏了就喜欢顾左右而言他,开始拿毛作类比,确实是你的老毛病了,得改改。且不论你这个类比对不对,上次就跟你指出,我又没说过我是毛派,拿毛作类比是想干啥呢?就事论事对你来说这么困难吗?还是说你自己其实是个混在托派中的“斯大林毛分子”,一个帖子里不提一下你偶像就心里难受?

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

9#
发表于 2023-9-30 23:32:41 |显示全部楼层
指鸭为鼠 发表于 2023-9-30 22:25
你怎么什么都看不懂呢
在联大拉夫罗夫遭到了140个国家反对,说他侵犯别人主权
还有几十个国家持有中立立场 ...

不是我什么都看不懂,是你想象力太丰富
联大总共就来了140多个国家代表(https://www.aljazeera.com/news/l ... er-for-78th-session),高级别会议来了130个(https://news.un.org/zh/story/2023/09/1122307),一般性辩论来了136个(https://gadebate.un.org/sites/de ... D/pgaclosing_en.pdf)。
而且这次就没有关于乌克兰主权的议程(https://www.un.org/zh/ga/78/meetings/https://media.un.org/zh/asset/k1k/k1ku76vdiehttps://media.un.org/zh/asset/k14/k14idrjjithttps://media.un.org/zh/asset/k1n/k1nlwvf8vnhttps://media.un.org/zh/asset/k1b/k1bjdvsnk2https://media.un.org/zh/asset/k1f/k1fr0vvd13),你这能想象出来这么丰富的故事,甚至连“拉夫罗夫不好意思”都能绘声绘色地想象出来,真是厉害。不会是你暗恋拉夫罗夫,在梦里梦到他了吧?

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

10#
发表于 2023-9-30 23:51:09 |显示全部楼层
井冈山卫士 发表于 2023-9-30 23:34
辛苦辛苦!

造谣动动嘴,辟谣跑断腿。

倒也不是为了辟谣,主要是喜欢看马列托“类似阿贵(阿q)就是我精神上必须要赢,实际输了没有关系”的样子

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